Abusive Parents in the MCU (trigger warning)

[lynnenne]

Hello friends! I apologize for my recent absence... I've been travelling and then there was a hurricane and my power was out for 3 days, so I've been preoccupied. Thank you to snickfic for last week's discussion topic about Thor at university learning to speak Groot.

I'm still travelling, and I watched Infinity War on the plane yesterday, so this week's topic is about that big purple dude we all hate.



The scene where Thanos kills Gamora, whom he claims is his favorite child, is one of the most gut-wrenching and infuriating moments in the MCU. I've read criticism from some fans that the directors tried to make us feel sorry for Thanos by showing his tears and his grief.

I took something different from the scene. Thanos' grief might make him more human than your average child abuser, but he's still an abuser. The fact that he hurts and kills those he loves doesn't make me, as a viewer, sympathize with him more. It only makes him more of a monster.

Others might have a different view. Hollywood does have a history of prioritizing manpain over the real suffering of women and children. And some of those cinematic tricks (e.g. close-up on Thanos' face after he throws Gamora off the cliff) are used in this movie.

What's your opinion? Were the directors trying to make the audience feel sorry for Thanos? Or were they merely emphasizing that he's a killer who feels more sorry for himself than for the children he abused?

Comments

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

They really said A Woman? And then several Other Women?

She didn't feel fridged exactly, but how her death and how Tony's death play out is a Wonderful example of how a double standard is propagated.

Really, I think they're trying to keep her MCU dead. Because there is certainly enough slippage between what the Wearing Red Skull's Visage said about the Stone and what seemed to happen for Steve to fish her out during what I have to believe was more than 80 years 'detouring'

[kore]

They really said A Woman? And then several Other Women?

Oh no, they named her, but it was just about that convincing. Markus and McFeeley said

"Jen Underdahl, our visual effects producer, read an outline or draft where Hawkeye goes over. And she goes, 'Don’t you take this away from her.' I actually get emotional thinking about it," McFeely said.

"And it was true, it was him taking the hit for her. It was melodramatic to have him die and not get his family back. And it is only right and proper that she’s done," added Markus.

And then they or the Russos backed it up later with "yeah and other women on the team agreed." Seriously. It read exactly like Well My Black/Jewish/Asian Friend Doesn't Think This is Racist. And the paper of record didn't quote the woman, either, it was just the dudes reporting her reaction. "Oh, we wanted to save her, but women insisted it was wrong!" That's actually infuriating (and they reveal their real focus by saying "she’s been a cipher the whole time. It wasn’t necessarily honest to the character to give her a funeral." I mean dudes can dicker all day over the Meaning of Being a Spy, but it's the writers saying she's a cipher that is the big clue.)

She didn't feel fridged exactly, but how her death and how Tony's death play out is a Wonderful example of how a double standard is propagated.

Yeah, I personally kind of space out during the technical discussions of what fridging "really" is because I think there's been enough meaning creep, and there's an emotional component to it that can get covered over by all the "well she CHOSE to die so it's not ACTUALLY" arguing I've seen (usually by dudes). I think Simon's original concept of fridging certainly fits into the larger cultural trope of "The death of a beautiful woman is, unquestionably, the most poetical topic in the world," which focuses on how the woman makes the men feel, it's not really about anything she does, what makes her worthy of mourning isn't her life or her actions but her death. (It also felt completely OOC for me with MCU Natasha, who is always about keeping on going and repenting and surviving.) And even if the focus is on Natasha's final, chosen action....it's still about her death. She's worthy because she chose to end her life. And yeah, your point about the huge differences between her death and Tony's death and the in-universe reactions to both, that really just spells it all out in neon letters.

Really, I think they're trying to keep her MCU dead. Because there is certainly enough slippage between what the Wearing Red Skull's Visage said about the Stone and what seemed to happen for Steve to fish her out during what I have to believe was more than 80 years 'detouring'

Yeah, it's a COMIC BOOK SUPERHERO MOVIE! And the other big "women are fungible" sign for me is, they "brought back" Gamora and clearly she's going to be a part of Guardians 3, but it's not the same person. Who knows if GOTG3 will actually be about that or not, but there's a long, long tradition in scifi and the male culture at large where a man loses a Beautiful Woman, creates or finds a facsimile, and either gets her to fall in love with him or wants to avenge himself on her or both. I've seen Vertigo, I don't need to see it again with a green-skinned woman.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Sheesh. And you're right, it smacks of the Exceptional Friend Cover. And it's going right into the pile with the not representation representation that I didn't catch on screen.

The thing that's important here, They Choose the Ronin schtick. That's on the Russos (before I was willing to concede TPTB but CA:CW wasn't a fluke.) How was he even getting around? Did all of (I was assuming the farm was in Iowa but I've read it was Missouri) Clint's part of farm country get Snapped? Because if it hadn't he'd have been drafted by a 14 year old girl who was in contact with hackers in Ukraine to reprogram the tractors.

My 'hope' is that GotG3 will have Thor trying to help Quill make a better 2nd impression on Gamora who hasn't gone through any of the arc she'd traveled. That line in Nebula's mouth... It's in the same swearjar as thinking Peggy would 'stay home'. Sheesh.

The only way I could see Natasha making such a choice, would be not wanting to explain things to Lila and or Laura. But again, the Russos made a choice. They could have had Nat and Clint do a Billy the Kid and Sundance, hell, sell off a memory.

[kore]

They Choose the Ronin schtick. That's on the Russos (before I was willing to concede TPTB but CA:CW wasn't a fluke.)

Yes, that's such a good point! They could have just NOT HAD CLINT BE A MASS MURDERER, and the choice would actually have been a lot harder. I've seen meta on how it's a mirror on what he does with Nat -- he saved her after she was a killer, she does the same for him -- but she was a brainwashed child soldier, and even in that official MCU timeline, they have him bringing her in when she was 14 or 16. I am sorry but I just don't think a brainwashed 16-year-old brought up in a cult is the same or morally less than a grown man who basically decides to bartend in the dark after he loses his family, but at the expense of other people's lives. It was like they wanted to bring in comics backstory, but distorted and it makes no sense.

How was he even getting around? Did all of (I was assuming the farm was in Iowa but I've read it was Missouri) Clint's part of farm country get Snapped? Because if it hadn't he'd have been drafted by a 14 year old girl who was in contact with hackers in Ukraine to reprogram the tractors.

HAH! And yeah, Clint in the MCU is kind of a CIPHER, to borrow a word, ahem, but I really never got the impression that he would just go off on a rampage like that. Hell, I don't even remember that they outright said that Coulson brought him in from a life of crime (could be wrong!). I know that's what fandom picked up and ran with, but fandom also ran with Clint in Vents, so.

In comics right now, Nat (and Tony too) is a clone who has all the memories of her former self, but is having a bit of a posthumous identity crisis. Too bad they won't do that in the MCU, because if she met up with Gamora then, it could be neat....

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Well, we never get backstory, and Phil is MCU first and backformed into the comics. But if they were thinking Ultimates (which is where Laura springs though there's been some name changes for the kids) then he'd been an Olympic archer that somehow ended up on death-row.

I have to say, if we spun a bingo card we'd get more sensible origins.

They just didn't want infinity formula in the MCU. Because then it wouldn't have been so easy to living fridge Peggy. And I'm really tired of 14/16 year old murderous girls, mind controlled no less, sprung from the half-grown minds of men.

Grief can have some strange results. But really, the healing powers of hot dish. Even if some 60 year old man was the only other Unsnapped, there would be one in someone's freezer. "Now, Marge made this, I just heated it up. Scout is on her ham radio and she's going to need an assistant."

Ah, the Natasha post Hawkeye and the Winter Soldier.

[kore]

But really, the healing powers of hot dish

OMFG I love that phrase. That basically sums up a perpetually half-baked (ha) fic I have about Nat and Clint bringing Wanda to the farm post-AOU, featuring a Laura who is neither a murderous badass nor a cardboard Good Wife prop.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

*curtseys*

I loved Ma Kent on Lois & Clark.

While she's not in much, Laura does appear in The Journey Rose as of Chapter 3

[lynnenne]

In comics right now, Nat (and Tony too) is a clone who has all the memories of her former self, but is having a bit of a posthumous identity crisis. Too bad they won't do that in the MCU, because if she met up with Gamora then, it could be neat....

That would be so cool!